This line from the movie seemed like a good one to make into the title of the review, since … *gestures vaguely at whole US situation right now*
But be warned, from here on in there be spoilers.
Anyway, the line was in fact about America Chavez, a new character introduced from the comics to help us into this weird and wonderful new stage in the MCU. It was just slightly off-putting to have a name that was so easily interpretable in dialogue as being about something else. Still, that’s just by way of a bleakly amusing side note.
Sam Raimi returns to the big chair for what we are dubbing the highest-RPM (Raimis Per Minute) outing since … shit, the Evils Dead? I haven’t seen much of the stuff he’s directed aside from those and the Spiderman trilogy[1], but this was very much a return to form. I forgot to look out for Ted Raimi and The Car, and Ted at least hasn’t got this one on his IMDB credits list, but Bruce Campbell was there (and boy was he) and that was literally the only thing I wanted out of this movie. Zombie hands bursting from the ground and weird zooms and gaping mouths and camera angles, all of that is just a bonus. All I wanted was Bruce Campbell beating himself up painfully while Sam Raimi laughed behind the camera.
Not pictured: Bruce Campbell. Bruce’s part was even better.
That’s it. Review over.
…
Okay fine.
Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness is a gory, jump-scary, full-blown psychedelic freakshow wherein all the coolest trip-sequences of the original Doctor Strange movie were dialled to 11 and made into a workable plot / travel dynamic. It was also about obsession (because Strange), and loss (because Wanda), and the Illuminati (because why not).
Props to the Illuminati for the most abrupt and hilarious mass-death since X-Force. I’m sure our universe’s version will do better.
So on the face of it we have a very simple movie full of whiz-bangs, BSTs and thankfully fairly muted Marvellian quipcraft, laid over the bare bones of another “hapless kid with superpowers at risk from the baddies teams up with cantankerous goodie and eventually everyone learns a valuable lesson about having a second characteristic” story. Actually, that’s really all there is. Do people go to Marvel movies expecting to be enlightened and their conceptions of the human condition forever changed? Fucking sociopaths.
This movie had some nice performances. Cumberbatch is as taciturn and soulful as ever, confronted by his many failings and his horrible (and apparently multiversal) ambition; Olsen is gut-wrenching as the bereaved and obsessed mother driven to insanity by her grief and also the Darkhold helped; and Xochitl Gomez was perfectly fine as the hapless kid who ended up going yaaaa in slow motion and blasting CGI out of her fists.
Also there were a bunch of others. Rachel McAdams was perfectly Christine as Christine, I suppose Anson Mount was there as the dude whose voice kills people, Patrick Stewart was Professor X, whatsisface was Fantastic Four Guy … sorry, I’m not putting much thought into this and (as of review time) none of these are listed in IMDB because of spoilers I guess. Michael Stuhlbarg was in it, which was nagging at me and then I realised he was also in Dopesick as Richard Sackler. Hayley Atwell as Captain Carter was fun to see. And Wong, of course. Wong is always great.
None of them had much to do in a movie that was mostly about Wanda and Stephen facing their demons (oh fuck do you see what I did there) in the wake of the WandaVision TV show and sort-of-kind-of Spider-Man: No Way Home, which I would say are at least recommended viewing before you see this. Weirdly the Loki TV show and Kang the Conqueror weren’t even mentioned although I think I did see the Time Variance Authority statues in a transition scene. Between Strange and Maximoff, and the relentless Raimity of the movie, there’s really not much more there. “Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness” really is exactly what it says on the box.
Poor Wanda. She really did have a cruel arc.
We of course get some teasing. Strange’s third eye in the mid-credits, Charlize Theron turning up (possibly in relation to the multiverse stuff we saw at the end of No Way Home), and so on. Plus of course the X-Men and Fantastic Four additions. Their arrivals were greeted with some feeble cheering in the cinema, but it was kind of silly.
I thoroughly approved of how utterly they were all destroyed by Scarlet Witch. Strongest Avenger indeed. But at the same time, should these Illuminati not have been a little more intelligent and a little less overconfident about her? They died so fucking easily compared to the Sacred Timeline / universe 616 characters. I suppose this was a way to introduce them into the MCU and future movies since it was only alternate versions who got bodied in this movie. But way to introduce them all as (like I said) X-Forcian clowns who die super easy. Not sure if this was a clever tease or a pre-emptive nerfing of the whole idea.
Gah, now I started to think about how the TVA and the Sacred Timeline relates to the multiverse, are the branches / variations of the timeline actually other universes or does the Sacred Timeline run through all these universes? The end of Loki seems to imply that the whole multiverse had only just happened due to the Lokis’ / Kang’s interference, but I guess the nature of the multiverse is that those other universes had always happened at that point. So the Sacred Timeline was preserving universe 616 until it failed, and now there have always been all these other universes. Or something. Someone else watch this movie (dreameling) and help me out.
So … many … universes!
That’s … about all I’ve got. If anyone has interest and energy, I feel like this will be one we can pull to pieces and play with way more in the comments than in an actual review. It was a fun night out and the movie was a solid Raimi, no complaints. Well worth seeing on IMAX in 3D. There’s just a lot of impact to the MCU that I think ultimately means the movies have finally fallen into the full bizarreness of the comics. This is what I was hoping for with Mysterio, so I can’t complain.
Good movie. I’ll give it an Ash vs. the Evil Dead and half a My Name Is Bruce out of a possible Evil Dead 3: Army of Darkness.
[1] On further research it seems like I’ve seen a lot of his stuff, but this was clearly the most RPMs we’d gotten in a while. That’s my point.
Hatboy's Hatstand 
I’m so glad RPM stuck so quickly.
It’s a perfect metric. What can I say?
Thanks for the review. My local newspaper gave it a poor review so I am wandering when I will see this one. The first one I have not seen as well.
OK so I have some thoughts! First of all, as a first movie in theater since march 2020 it didn’t go well, but that wasn’t the movie’s fault. Both my girls had colds, back to back, and the second wasn’t feeling well today (just saw the movie) and the first didn’t want to go as much as the second so, I went alone.
The theater was pretty empty, so that was great for most reasons. I suppose a good crowd is useful in some ways.
Gotta say, the critiques I’ve heard were spot on…this was no Infinity War or Endgame in terms of polish. After seeing THOSE about 10 times each I do see some goofs, some rough patches, but the ones here were pretty glaring. Let me do it in terms of characters.
But first, loved the concept, mix in a little bit of horror movie feel, show several alternate personalities or at least talk about them, that was great.
Mordo. They acted as if his being a villain was captured on screen…so was it in the recent Spider Man I didn’t see? I knew his arc so I wasn’t confused, I was able to appreciate it, but I felt like it hadn’t been established well.
America. Didn’t really like the performance, not sure if it was writing (probably, I had a lot of problems with the writing) or the actress (I’m going to say no for now and see how she does in the next one. After all, Chris Hemsworth wasn’t that great in the first Thor IIRC).
Also yeah, America, that’s right, I don’t like your performance. Be best. Please.
Wanda. WTF. I understood all that was going on, it was just stupid. Having to kill her alternate to get a family, wow. Really? She didn’t think that through? Because I did. Surely in ONE alternate reality she died? Just one? Can’t just find that one? Also, man that was a lot of killing and torturing. Jesus. I don’t like her character arc one bit. But at the same time, I think it was similar in the comics. Not the same plot but a downfall regardless.
People actually LOLed at Kryz…Krz…you know. When he was revealed. I did too. LOL.
Strange was…well not his best. Also, this brings me to the fighting, which I found VERY disappointing. Nowhere near the creativity employed in Infinity War, and beyond that Strange seemed very downgraded.
His buddy the sorcerer supreme was cool, though…forgot his name, just spewing this out for now. But, why did Strange still have the Time Stone necklace if he wasn’t the supreme? That’s a little off…confusing.
Anyway the fights were bad and Strange seemed far less capable at it. Didn’t like that either, it was offputting.
And there was a lot of stupid standing around and waiting, like in the tunnel headed for the good book, that was VERY stupid. Especially at that blast door. KEEP GOING! You have a destination! Get to it!
That was really really really bad. I know, they needed to give Wanda time to get around it to keep the suspense, but no.
Then Strange takes forever to cause the rupture and flood, and she just lets him. Ugh. Bad.
Also disappointing that the good book did nothing, just got torched. But ok. Shit happens.
I think that’s it. It was ok…it was good to be back in the theater. Good to be watching Marvel again. I think I’m ready for more, I do have The Nostalgia. But this was not well done.
Thanks for swinging by and commenting! It’s been a ghost town lately. All over social media, to be honest. I’ve fallen out of the algorithm and haven’t been writing fuck all, so this was most welcome.
And I’ve gotta say, your comments here are valid. I think I came down more positively overall, but that – like you say – may have been more about external things than the movie itself. Although again, your criticisms mesh with mine.
Ah, bummer.
Oh yeah, I couldn’t have gone without a bunch of friends to Leo-point at all the Raimi-isms.
Little unfair to compare this to a movie (in two parts) of that scale and planning, but sure. There’s no reason a movie can’t at least get mapped out to a decent degree.
*nod*
I recalled him being revealed to us as the villain in at least a post-credits scene from the original Doctor Strange movie, but had he been set up as a villain Strange was aware of or did that happen off-screen? Or was he just established as Strange’s hard-ass mentor and kind-of-critic there (and then villain off-screen, which didn’t really go anywhere in “our” universe), which was why he was giving Illuminati-Mordo a bit of stick? Hmm.
That was one thing that bugged me a bit in this movie but we should probably be used to by now: so much of this movie relied on the viewer having watched all of the Disney+ shows and all of the other movies, or at least several of them (and no way to guess which ones would really be needed, so yeah, watch them all). But this is very much their model now – cut corners on self-contained movies, lean on their massive body of established lore, reward the dedicated viewers. Much like comic books, really. But at least comic books have footnote-boxes for this stuff.
Still, they’ve been doing that for a while so it shouldn’t be too jarring. This was just a lot of it, and a little too reliant on it.
Straight disagree about Hemsworth, but Gomez (America) did wind up without much to do and a pretty underwhelming arc and character. Like I said, she was no Deadpool 2 Russell, but that is certainly the writing’s fault.
I also can’t help but wonder if they were being cautious about putting her too much front-and-centre because of the moronic backlash over Carol Danvers? Nothing good writing couldn’t have solved though.
She definitely got done dirty, it was set up in WandaVision but still yeah. A bit more setup could have been done to make it clear the Darkhold has made her eeee-vil, thus making “find easy universe[1], kill and replace self” the go-to rather than finding some perfectly set-up universe among the infinite variations where she could just settle down. The point, after all, was that she wouldn’t have just settled down there, not once the Darkhold had its hooks in her. So they could have shown that. I mean, how gut-wrenching would it have been to have a reveal at the end: “Wanda! You already did this in seven different universes before deciding to take on the Illuminati and establish multiversal power! You settled down for a while, but then you always fixed things too much, the boys always saw through it, and when they got scared, you killed them and moved on! Remember!” That would also have meshed better with the intro, with America and alternate-Strange fleeing from monsters. Would require a little tweaking to have America be aware of what’s happening, but wouldn’t that have been a better reveal than “oh, you never told me her name did you”? Then that could have folded into it, like, that was Strange realising “our” Wanda was the villain Wanda … I don’t know, I think I could write it.
[1] And … let’s be real, was the precise universe where the Illuminati were in control the best one for that? I can sort of squint and see how the storytelling / plot device of showing off her power overlaps a bit with the Darkhold’s ambition and arrogance, so it’s not purely “so the movie can happen” … but it’s mostly “so the movie can happen”.
Took me an inordinate about of time to figure out what you were talking about here. I only ever caught the edge of the “John Krasinski as Reed Richards” fan push, so I knew what was happening there but didn’t see why it was such a big deal. But sure. That (and the ensuing scene) was fun.
Agreed.
Wong?
The Eye of Agamotto only had the Time Stone in it when Strange / the Sorcerers was / were hiding it there. The Ancient One hid it elsewhere. The Eye isn’t “the Time Stone necklace”, it’s a thing of its own that was used to contain the power for a while.
Now, clear something up for me: “Our” universe currently exists with no Stones, right? Because Thanos destroyed them? And the ones taken from the past were all returned, so … that Thanos could destroy them. Timey wimey, that’s fine. But that’s what happened, right? Because otherwise there could have been a cool scene of Wong pulling it out and giving Wanda a hellacious flashback of Vision being killed and then unkilled.
Additionally, the Loki TV series established that there are tons of Infinity Stones in the multiverse, but they’re basically paperweights outside their universes of origin. Which is a neat sidestepping of “why didn’t Wanda just show up with seventeen Infinity Stones?”
Didn’t really bother me, but you know me and fight scenes. Put something interesting in them or otherwise get them done fast. These weren’t memorable. I see a lot of praise for the “musical notes” fight and sure, it was interesting … but was a bit outside Strange’s idiom to be honest. Neat way to establish, maybe, that the enemy-Strange was a musician instead of a surgeon … but our Strange oughtn’t’ve hit back so effectively with the same style then. Should’ve, I don’t know, fought harp strings with scalpels.
Agreed, that was weird. Wouldn’t have been too hard to give them something to stop for. An additional ward that needed to be carefully unpicked. Something.
Yeah, given that it was the source of absolute evil and had so much power … yeah, and “destroyed in every universe”, what?
WHAT?
Agreed in general, although I would not come down as hard as you did in your final sentence here. I was entertained, and that was all I was hoping for. Good to see Raimi hasn’t lost his touch.
“And I’ve gotta say, your comments here are valid. I think I came down more positively overall, but that – like you say – may have been more about external things than the movie itself. Although again, your criticisms mesh with mine.”
Cheers! And yeah, a good many have external causes, but certainly not all! I still maintain they could have done WAY better with this movie without blowing whatever budget, which….
“Little unfair to compare this to a movie (in two parts) of that scale and planning, but sure. There’s no reason a movie can’t at least get mapped out to a decent degree.”
OK so I was comparing it to one or the other, in terms of cinematography, writing, acting, etc. I guess I didn’t really think the difference in budget should have had such a massive impact on the quality. I know, they put their all into those two movies. But as a counterpoint, they tread that ground now so it should be easier and cheaper to do it again. Do the things I’m criticizing REALLY blow up a budget? I know, you weren’t saying it but I thought it was part of your response.
“I recalled him being revealed to us as the villain in at least a post-credits scene from the original Doctor Strange movie, but had he been set up as a villain Strange was aware of or did that happen off-screen? That was one thing that bugged me a bit in this movie but we should probably be used to by now: so much of this movie relied on the viewer having watched all of the Disney+ shows and all of the other movies, or at least several of them (and no way to guess which ones would really be needed, so yeah, watch them all). But this is very much their model now – cut corners on self-contained movies, lean on their massive body of established lore, reward the dedicated viewers. Much like comic books, really. But at least comic books have footnote-boxes for this stuff.
Still, they’ve been doing that for a while so it shouldn’t be too jarring. This was just a lot of it, and a little too reliant on it.”
100%! And you tell me! I haven’t seen anything since Endgame while you have. I assume he showed up somewhere but now I’m having a hard time figuring out where. Too busy to google right now, and it’s really besides the point because we agree.
Yeah I actually thought they did a GOOD job of catching up people who hadn’t seen WandaVision, to soften this critique a bit. Just the Mordo stuff seemed like it wasn’t really based on anything they’d shown. Remember, Strange said he’s been trying to kill him etc., something like that, so it really doesn’t just come from that single post-credit scene.
“Straight disagree about Hemsworth, but Gomez (America) did wind up without much to do and a pretty underwhelming arc and character. Like I said, she was no Deadpool 2 Russell, but that is certainly the writing’s fault.
I also can’t help but wonder if they were being cautious about putting her too much front-and-centre because of the moronic backlash over Carol Danvers? Nothing good writing couldn’t have solved though.”
OK, well certainly some of the Marvel actors have grown into their roles more than others, who were nailing it from the start. Maybe I’m thinking more of Iron Man or, you know, even Wanda? Or just the quality of their earlier movies…Thor really wasn’t super great until Ragnarok, IMO.
Fair point about the writing, again.
“She definitely got done dirty, it was set up in WandaVision but still yeah. A bit more setup could have been done to make it clear the Darkhold has made her eeee-vil, thus making “find easy universe[1], kill and replace self” the go-to rather than finding some perfectly set-up universe among the infinite variations where she could just settle down. The point, after all, was that she wouldn’t have just settled down there, not once the Darkhold had its hooks in her. So they could have shown that. I mean, how gut-wrenching would it have been to have a reveal at the end: “Wanda! You already did this in seven different universes before deciding to take on the Illuminati and establish multiversal power! You settled down for a while, but then you always fixed things too much, the boys always saw through it, and when they got scared, you killed them and moved on! Remember!” That would also have meshed better with the intro, with America and alternate-Strange fleeing from monsters. Would require a little tweaking to have America be aware of what’s happening, but wouldn’t that have been a better reveal than “oh, you never told me her name did you”? Then that could have folded into it, like, that was Strange realising “our” Wanda was the villain Wanda … I don’t know, I think I could write it.
[1] And … let’s be real, was the precise universe where the Illuminati were in control the best one for that? I can sort of squint and see how the storytelling / plot device of showing off her power overlaps a bit with the Darkhold’s ambition and arrogance, so it’s not purely “so the movie can happen” … but it’s mostly “so the movie can happen”.”
This is brilliant, that would have been AMAZING writing, Jesus what the hell Marvel???? I really have nothing to add, just wanted to agree with all of this and repost it because it is genius,
As to the universe they battled in, it really wasn’t up to Wanda right? It was America who took them there, so she had to do battle where they were. So that much was ok, and in fact kind of works.
“Took me an inordinate about of time to figure out what you were talking about here. I only ever caught the edge of the “John Krasinski as Reed Richards” fan push, so I knew what was happening there but didn’t see why it was such a big deal. But sure. That (and the ensuing scene) was fun.”
Sorry, LOL. Was just trying to pound it out and get to the next thing, yeah him. I don’t know about the fan push but I know some people thought he looked goofy as Reed Richards. Me among them. I wasn’t expecting to lol but it just kinda happened!
“The Eye of Agamotto only had the Time Stone in it when Strange / the Sorcerers was / were hiding it there. The Ancient One hid it elsewhere. The Eye isn’t “the Time Stone necklace”, it’s a thing of its own that was used to contain the power for a while.”
Well the Ancient One had it in there in Endgame but maybe that was a goof/shortcut? Can’t remember where it was in Dr. Strange 1. But fair enough.
So why does he still have the eye? Why doesn’t Wong, the Sorcerer Supreme, have it? I think it would, similar to Endgame, be less confusing.
“Now, clear something up for me: “Our” universe currently exists with no Stones, right? Because Thanos destroyed them? And the ones taken from the past were all returned, so … that Thanos could destroy them. Timey wimey, that’s fine. But that’s what happened, right? Because otherwise there could have been a cool scene of Wong pulling it out and giving Wanda a hellacious flashback of Vision being killed and then unkilled.”
Damn I think you’re right! So the new timeline in this universe is that Thanos snapped and vaporized the Stones, but also in a loop the Avengers borrowed them from earlier and unsnapped and snapped Thanos’ entire army, 5 years after the Thanos Snap and Atomization. So yeah! There are no Stones anymore to keep hold of.
That’s interesting, because The Ancient One calls the time stone their chief weapon against evil and without it they would be overrun. So, I mean I guess like what Wanda did?
Because the stones are still present, keeping the universe running, just in atomic form, but not available for use. Which is what I thought The Ancient One was saying in Endgame.
Hmm….
“Additionally, the Loki TV series established that there are tons of Infinity Stones in the multiverse, but they’re basically paperweights outside their universes of origin. Which is a neat sidestepping of “why didn’t Wanda just show up with seventeen Infinity Stones?””
Oh indeed! Thanks for that!
“Didn’t really bother me, but you know me and fight scenes. Put something interesting in them or otherwise get them done fast. These weren’t memorable. I see a lot of praise for the “musical notes” fight and sure, it was interesting … but was a bit outside Strange’s idiom to be honest. Neat way to establish, maybe, that the enemy-Strange was a musician instead of a surgeon … but our Strange oughtn’t’ve hit back so effectively with the same style then. Should’ve, I don’t know, fought harp strings with scalpels.”
Hah then based on the Pitch Meeting I think you’re going to LOVE the “fight scenes” in Moon Knight! LOL
Apparently he just blacks out and then it’s over, everyone defeated. Perfect fight scene for Hatboy!
Good point about the musical notes fight, although maybe in one way that shows how good Strange has become, against my complaints, to be able to improvise like that and fight in the style of the other? I think it works either way.
“Agreed, that was weird. Wouldn’t have been too hard to give them something to stop for. An additional ward that needed to be carefully unpicked. Something.”
Right?? I mean, write??
“Yeah, given that it was the source of absolute evil and had so much power … yeah, and “destroyed in every universe”, what?
WHAT?”
Well I was talking about the Book of Ashanti (sp?) and I think it existed in-between universes, didn’t they say that? So there really was just one of it. So…maybe it should be harder to destroy? LOL
“Agreed in general, although I would not come down as hard as you did in your final sentence here. I was entertained, and that was all I was hoping for. Good to see Raimi hasn’t lost his touch.”
I modify to not as well done as it clearly could have been with just a bit more effort. As you demonstrated.
Oh yeah, I definitely think any budget issues they had were self-inflicted and unnecessary. I wasn’t actually thinking of budget at any point here although I would expect this movie’s budget to be lower than either Endgame or Infinity War … I would assume at this point these movies get a blank cheque to do what they like, and if they failed to use some of that to hold one or two more writing workshops before going to production, that’s a fuck-up.
It wasn’t, but it’s definitely a good point. I agree on the budget non-issue, it’s no excuse here. We all know you can make a perfectly great movie on very little money (Raimi does it all the time!), even though at this point yes, there is a certain amount of mega-bucks and post-production and effects that are required to give it that Marvel Movie Look. Objection, hearsay, object to my own question. Next.
Yeah no, he really didn’t show up again after Doctor Strange, so what seemed like a slow-burn enemy-plant just went in this direction. With apparently off-screen villain-process. Which, way to waste a great actor and great villain! Maybe they felt there were too many of these “the heroes are too powerful and must be stopped I’m the good guy actually” type villains? Which is valid, but Chiwetel Ejiofor is fantastic.
Alright, that’s good actually because it had to be a big concern. There’s a lot of cinematic ground they could lose by insisting everyone buys Disney+.
Yeah that’s true, I didn’t pay much attention to what Strange was saying about him, but there was a lot of unearned-seeming relationship there. I guess they just lazily assumed we’d extrapolate from the teased Mordo arc? And I kind of did, so that end justifies their means. But agreed, it’s sloppy.
Olsen definitely got better as she went along, but that fit her character as a Sokovian lab rat that became a person.
Thor’s arc took a (widely considered) dip in the middle, although I kind of liked that one too so this really is just a matter of opinion. I mean you’re talking to a guy who thinks Winter Soldier is the weakest MCU movie (okay, Black Widow was a bit of a non-event too), so grain of salt. Ragnarok was an absolute highlight though, and no mistake. Hope Love and Thunder has even a fraction of Ragnarok’s greatness.
Good point, they just ended up there and she followed them, didn’t she? That requires some work. It would have been quite easy, I think, for the Illuminati to pull Strange and America over, “reckless multiverse driving, this is the police” style, and bring them to their universe for a spanking. And for Wanda, in our twist-rewrite, to stalk them there because she (the Darkhold) identifies the Illuminati as a threat. A laughable threat, as it happens.
*shrug* It’s Strange bling. I feel like this isn’t that big a deal.
That’s exactly what I thought was happening! The whole mess with No Way Home, Loki, all of it. I was waiting for the Time Variance Authority and the Illuminati to link to the Masters of the Mystic Arts and the dark timelines the Ancient One warned Banner about, it seemed like a really tidy link-up. Yes, the timelines were restored when Cap returned the Time Stone, but Strange still gives the same Time Stone to Thanos later because that’s how time works, so the Time Stone’s defence ends there. And that’s when the trouble starts (and when the multiverse had-always-existed, because that’s how the multiverse works).
But I dunno. Can we still pretend that’s what happened? Because it got really murky with Mysterio’s fake-out in Far From Home and the No Way Home plot.
Also, I really dislike this idea (as canonised in the movies, I know it’s not your take). If they’re destroyed, they’re destroyed. If they’re still there, but atomised, then they are still there and there’s no point. Meh, whatever. This is just a thing I’m going to consciously ignore in the movies, so I can continue enjoying them the same way. Not a big deal.
We just finished watching that last night. Infuriatingly pitch-black series where they could have saved a ton of money by just having a soundtrack because you can’t see anything at all for two of the six episodes … but yeah, those crash-cut-scenes were great and they also didn’t overdo the fight scenes they did show. I was pleased.
Yeah, you know I didn’t put that together before now but that was something I really liked.
*nod* Fair.
Oh right, the Book of McGuffin. I thought you were talking about the Darkhold. There were problems with both those items to be honest.
Well, here on the Hatstand we definitely excel in giving movies facelifts after the fact.
Actually, to reply to myself now this has shaken some thoughts loose…
I guess the point the Ancient One was trying to make was that if / when Banner took the Time Stone and went into the future with it, for that period of time there would be no Time Stone at all in that universe so the really bad timelines and monsters could happen. He solved that by *claps hands* Time Travel!™, meaning it never happened and so there were no dark branches (except maybe in some version of the universe that did happen before it was undone, which I kind of expected the Time Variance Authority in Loki to cover but they didn’t).
Post-Thanos-destroying-the-Stones, though, if we ignore the “the Stones are still there atomically and still serve their purpose” idea (which I totally do want to ignore), we do have potential for the dark branches and the multiverse and even Kang the Conqueror (Loki) to show up. The MCU think tank did paint themselves into a bit of a corner there because Thanos had to destroy the Stones to ensure his stupid legacy was not undone, and yet if he completely destroyed them the universe would probably unravel unless they made it very clear what the Stones could and could not do. Maybe Thanos was just a maniac and destroying the Time Stone doomed the universe he just went to so much trouble to “save”. But he is a mad Titan so…
Also amusing was the number of Stones that were lying around in the Time Variance Authority offices in Loki. Implying a lot of universes (or more accurately pruned timelines) out there just didn’t have Stones in them, atomised or otherwise. There needs to be a full and complete accounting of the multiverse and timeline and Infinity Stones one day, and I suspect it’s never going to happen because at this point the MCU is just about as big a mess as the comics. Well not that bad, but close enough.
“I guess the point the Ancient One was trying to make was that if / when Banner took the Time Stone and went into the future with it, for that period of time there would be no Time Stone at all in that universe so the really bad timelines and monsters could happen. He solved that by *claps hands* Time Travel!™, meaning it never happened and so there were no dark branches (except maybe in some version of the universe that did happen before it was undone, which I kind of expected the Time Variance Authority in Loki to cover but they didn’t).”
Right, all good points. Not watching Loki so my contributions here are minimal.
“Post-Thanos-destroying-the-Stones, though, if we ignore the “the Stones are still there atomically and still serve their purpose” idea (which I totally do want to ignore), we do have potential for the dark branches and the multiverse and even Kang the Conqueror (Loki) to show up. The MCU think tank did paint themselves into a bit of a corner there because Thanos had to destroy the Stones to ensure his stupid legacy was not undone, and yet if he completely destroyed them the universe would probably unravel unless they made it very clear what the Stones could and could not do. Maybe Thanos was just a maniac and destroying the Time Stone doomed the universe he just went to so much trouble to “save”. But he is a mad Titan so…”
I tend to think of it as you can’t really FULLY destroy the stones (caveat later) because they’re fundamentally a part of the universe itself…not without the universe completely fucking up. So the most they stones could do to themselves is the atomization. Another thing to wonder about is Scarlet Witch destroying the Mind Stone, though briefly. Probably just not worth getting into.
And I’m fine with that…it doesn’t bother me like it seems to do to you, but as you’re saying throughout these comments, there is a lot of missing canon that should be here. Should be thought out.
“Also amusing was the number of Stones that were lying around in the Time Variance Authority offices in Loki. Implying a lot of universes (or more accurately pruned timelines) out there just didn’t have Stones in them, atomised or otherwise. There needs to be a full and complete accounting of the multiverse and timeline and Infinity Stones one day, and I suspect it’s never going to happen because at this point the MCU is just about as big a mess as the comics. Well not that bad, but close enough.”
Not having seen this but having seen the latest Strange a thought occurs to me. Perhaps all those stones could have been from the destroyed universes? Like from the collisions and whatnot? Or removing them caused the destruction?
As you well know, once you have an infinite multiverse everything can happen an infinite number of times. And this is me backing away slowly now. I don’t like shit like that, as you know!
“Oh yeah, I definitely think any budget issues they had were self-inflicted and unnecessary. I wasn’t actually thinking of budget at any point here although I would expect this movie’s budget to be lower than either Endgame or Infinity War … I would assume at this point these movies get a blank cheque to do what they like, and if they failed to use some of that to hold one or two more writing workshops before going to production, that’s a fuck-up.”
Agreed. I was wondering if the budget affected the planning etc., but let’s move on.
“It wasn’t, but it’s definitely a good point. I agree on the budget non-issue, it’s no excuse here. We all know you can make a perfectly great movie on very little money (Raimi does it all the time!), even though at this point yes, there is a certain amount of mega-bucks and post-production and effects that are required to give it that Marvel Movie Look. Objection, hearsay, object to my own question. Next.”
Right!
“Yeah no, he really didn’t show up again after Doctor Strange, so what seemed like a slow-burn enemy-plant just went in this direction. With apparently off-screen villain-process. Which, way to waste a great actor and great villain! Maybe they felt there were too many of these “the heroes are too powerful and must be stopped I’m the good guy actually” type villains? Which is valid, but Chiwetel Ejiofor is fantastic.”
Fully agreed on all points.
“Yeah that’s true, I didn’t pay much attention to what Strange was saying about him, but there was a lot of unearned-seeming relationship there. I guess they just lazily assumed we’d extrapolate from the teased Mordo arc? And I kind of did, so that end justifies their means. But agreed, it’s sloppy.”
Yeah, again agreed! For me, I saw a video or two on Mordo so I filled it in that way.
“Olsen definitely got better as she went along, but that fit her character as a Sokovian lab rat that became a person.”
Aside from the slow dropping of the accent! LOL
“Thor’s arc took a (widely considered) dip in the middle, although I kind of liked that one too so this really is just a matter of opinion. I mean you’re talking to a guy who thinks Winter Soldier is the weakest MCU movie (okay, Black Widow was a bit of a non-event too), so grain of salt. Ragnarok was an absolute highlight though, and no mistake. Hope Love and Thunder has even a fraction of Ragnarok’s greatness.”
Winter Soldier was boring AF. Never take my affection for the character to be connected to the movie of the same name!
Agreed, opinion, but the dip was real! A “kind of liked” from you is like a “enh” from me!
“Good point, they just ended up there and she followed them, didn’t she? That requires some work. It would have been quite easy, I think, for the Illuminati to pull Strange and America over, “reckless multiverse driving, this is the police” style, and bring them to their universe for a spanking. And for Wanda, in our twist-rewrite, to stalk them there because she (the Darkhold) identifies the Illuminati as a threat. A laughable threat, as it happens.”
Yup.
I see you didn’t address how the Ancient One had the Time Stone in the Eye, in Endgame…I’m going to take it that you agree that was a bit of a shortcut/flub unless you tell me otherwise.
“That’s exactly what I thought was happening! The whole mess with No Way Home, Loki, all of it. I was waiting for the Time Variance Authority and the Illuminati to link to the Masters of the Mystic Arts and the dark timelines the Ancient One warned Banner about, it seemed like a really tidy link-up. Yes, the timelines were restored when Cap returned the Time Stone, but Strange still gives the same Time Stone to Thanos later because that’s how time works, so the Time Stone’s defence ends there. And that’s when the trouble starts (and when the multiverse had-always-existed, because that’s how the multiverse works).
But I dunno. Can we still pretend that’s what happened? Because it got really murky with Mysterio’s fake-out in Far From Home and the No Way Home plot.”
Man I don’t even remember, need to look into those two again. Saw Far from Home but don’t know what you mean, and didn’t see No Way Home.
“We just finished watching that last night. Infuriatingly pitch-black series where they could have saved a ton of money by just having a soundtrack because you can’t see anything at all for two of the six episodes … but yeah, those crash-cut-scenes were great and they also didn’t overdo the fight scenes they did show. I was pleased.”
Hee!
Looked dumb to me, I’ll pass again.
“Well, here on the Hatstand we definitely excel in giving movies facelifts after the fact.”
True although I’d like to think it’s not a hindsight thing…I mean how can we write what they wrote better until we see what they wrote? We could do it live, too! And I do! During the movie!
I think Loki was my favourite Disney+ MCU show so far. Just my style of epic-scale WTF.
It just bugs me because if the Time Stone can still provide its universe-protecting benefits while atomised but could not be used in an Infinity Gauntlet style thing to do great evil, why didn’t the Sorcerer Supreme atomise it ages ago? Seems like a safer way of storing and protecting it.
But then, the Ancient One’s whole speech to Banner was riddled with inconsistencies and problems the more we pick it apart and chances are none of them were powerful enough to atomise an Infinity Stone anyway (Thanos used the Stones to destroy the Stones after all), so yeah. Best not dwelt upon really. It’s probably fine. And after all, a universe in which the Infinity Stones are all reduced to atoms but still enjoys the benefits of their continued existence is a universe in which movie-viewers don’t need to keep asking “Where’s
Poochiethe Infinity Stones?”Also the Infinity Stones no longer need to be louder, angrier, and have access to a time machine.
Basically this is my weird way of saying cool, we can (as MCU viewers) forget about the Stones and have all new threats and powerful things without having to answer the “why didn’t X just use the Y Stone” type questions anymore.
I’m actually more fine with it the more we break it down, so this has been of benefit!
Definitely! I mean, these were handled a bit differently in that they were branching timelines from given events and the TVA went in and destroyed literally everything using some sort of glowing MCU plot gadget, but they did bring the multiverse in at the end and I can certainly see how Stones from those universes would have ended up washing up at the TVA. And some universes (like Evil Music Strangeverse, but not necessarily Evil Music Strangeverse itself) falling apart because of the removal of Stones. Like if Cap had failed to return everything, it could have happened to “our” universe. One of the dark timeline events the Ancient One warned of could easily have been an incursion of another universe.
Exactly!
But didn’t that make sense? Okay, she was pretty isolated and didn’t have the full immersion that might usually help wear down an accent, but I would still expect it to drop away (or, let’s be accurate here, be replaced with a USian accent – I know plenty of people who pick up accents from wherever they live). It still popped up occasionally in intervening films, when she was upset. Which was actually pretty great. But all in all, by all means let’s dropski the cringeski accentski.
Aw. Well I didn’t like it because I thought Bucky was boring, so there’s that.
Very true. It also doesn’t speak to your original point, which was that Chris Hemsworth wasn’t that great in the first Thor. Which I disagreed with and still disagree with as a matter of opinion. I think he was excellent in the first Thor, and not so great in the second. Mainly, I think, because they tried to play it straight and dark, and Thor is not that kind of character (and, as a matter of constant surprise to me, Hemsworth is not that kind of actor – he is in fact extremely funny and has amazing comic timing, which is why Men In Black International was such a fucking disgrace).
I did address it, but I’m only too happy to elaborate!
*shrug* It’s Strange bling [as of the Ancient One’s death; before that it was Ancient One bling. And the fact that one Sorcerer Supreme wore it, then a prospective or beginner Sorcerer Supreme wore it, in both cases while it contained the Time Stone, and now the next Sorcerer Supreme doesn’t wear it most likely because it was blipped with Strange for five years and Wong decided it wasn’t a necessary part of his uniform, doesn’t mean it’s Sorcerer Supreme bling by any application of logic]. [And before the Time Stone was destroyed, it contained the Time Stone and the Eye of Agamotto was synonymous with the Time Stone. Now it doesn’t, and isn’t, because the Time Stone was destroyed.] I feel like this isn’t that big a deal [and I still don’t; indeed if anything, I think it’s less of a big deal now than I did when we started this!].
Well Far From Home was a weirdly accurate fake multiverse plot by Mysterio (he somehow managed to even get the numbers right), and No Way Home actually had multiverse so it’s kind of important to the point. Disney+’s What If…? also had a lot of multiverse stuff that sort of folded into Multiverse of Madness, but not as much as I was expecting it to. Captain Carter at least was introduced there. Although (not to spoil but) there was a mega-powerful zombie Scarlet Witch, it was in fact a version of Ultron with all six Infinity Stones that was the big bad in that one. I’m still not entirely clear how that set of Infinity Stones managed to work multiversally while the ones in Loki were inert. I think maybe I am still messing it up and they just weren’t powerful at the TVA; they only have power inside universes, not beyond them.
Or somesuch.
This is accurate.
“It just bugs me because if the Time Stone can still provide its universe-protecting benefits while atomised but could not be used in an Infinity Gauntlet style thing to do great evil, why didn’t the Sorcerer Supreme atomise it ages ago? Seems like a safer way of storing and protecting it.
But then, the Ancient One’s whole speech to Banner was riddled with inconsistencies and problems the more we pick it apart and chances are none of them were powerful enough to atomise an Infinity Stone anyway (Thanos used the Stones to destroy the Stones after all), so yeah. Best not dwelt upon really. It’s probably fine. And after all, a universe in which the Infinity Stones are all reduced to atoms but still enjoys the benefits of their continued existence is a universe in which movie-viewers don’t need to keep asking “Where’s Poochie the Infinity Stones?””
OK I didn’t think that’s what she was saying. She called the Time Stone “OUR chief weapon against evil.” I think she meant in it’s stone form where she could actually use it. That’s why they didn’t atomize it…also in Infinity War Strange says his role is to protect it.
I think that part IS fine. I don’t see an inconsistency. They would USE it like Strange did in Doctor Strange, in the final battle. It doesn’t help the same by just existing, otherwise it could be anywhere (and not atomized).
“Also the Infinity Stones no longer need to be louder, angrier, and have access to a time machine.
Basically this is my weird way of saying cool, we can (as MCU viewers) forget about the Stones and have all new threats and powerful things without having to answer the “why didn’t X just use the Y Stone” type questions anymore.”
Yeah for sure!
“I’m actually more fine with it the more we break it down, so this has been of benefit!”
YAY!
“Definitely! I mean, these were handled a bit differently in that they were branching timelines from given events and the TVA went in and destroyed literally everything using some sort of glowing MCU plot gadget, but they did bring the multiverse in at the end and I can certainly see how Stones from those universes would have ended up washing up at the TVA. And some universes (like Evil Music Strangeverse, but not necessarily Evil Music Strangeverse itself) falling apart because of the removal of Stones. Like if Cap had failed to return everything, it could have happened to “our” universe. One of the dark timeline events the Ancient One warned of could easily have been an incursion of another universe.”
100%
“But didn’t that make sense? Okay, she was pretty isolated and didn’t have the full immersion that might usually help wear down an accent, but I would still expect it to drop away (or, let’s be accurate here, be replaced with a USian accent – I know plenty of people who pick up accents from wherever they live). It still popped up occasionally in intervening films, when she was upset. Which was actually pretty great. But all in all, by all means let’s dropski the cringeski accentski.”
It’s my experience that people who have a strong accent into adulthood NEVER drop it. I mean I suppose you could deliberately train it out, I’ve not known anyone who had the time and interest in doing that, but…I know a LOT of foreign people who are now Americans (or in America for decades). They all still have their accents.
YOU still have your Oz accent IIRC. Maybe it’s faded more now, but the few precious times I’ve heard your voice it was there.
And that’s really all I’m saying. you make good points about the movie choice, so I back off my critique a bit. But that’s not how time travel works!
“Aw. Well I didn’t like it because I thought Bucky was boring, so there’s that.”
Similar to how I find Falcon boring. I mean we have Falcon, War Machine, Iron Man…how many superheroes without superpowers are we gonna have??? I think it’s part of the gig!
I guess Tony has the really big brain, but still.
“Very true. It also doesn’t speak to your original point, which was that Chris Hemsworth wasn’t that great in the first Thor. Which I disagreed with and still disagree with as a matter of opinion. I think he was excellent in the first Thor, and not so great in the second. Mainly, I think, because they tried to play it straight and dark, and Thor is not that kind of character (and, as a matter of constant surprise to me, Hemsworth is not that kind of actor – he is in fact extremely funny and has amazing comic timing, which is why Men In Black International was such a fucking disgrace).”
OK, fair. Didn’t see that last movie either.
‘I see you didn’t address how the Ancient One had the Time Stone in the Eye, in Endgame…I’m going to take it that you agree that was a bit of a shortcut/flub unless you tell me otherwise.’
“I did address it, but I’m only too happy to elaborate!”
Actually no, you didn’t really. You touched on the general issue but confused the matter by stating “The Eye of Agamotto only had the Time Stone in it when Strange / the Sorcerers was / were hiding it there. ***The Ancient One hid it elsewhere.***” (emphasis mine)
*But not in Endgame!* which is what I was asking about. So you can see why I thought this wasn’t addressed because, well, you said that right there. Now,
“*shrug* It’s Strange bling [as of the Ancient One’s death; before that it was Ancient One bling. And the fact that one Sorcerer Supreme wore it, then a prospective or beginner Sorcerer Supreme wore it, in both cases while it contained the Time Stone, and now the next Sorcerer Supreme doesn’t wear it most likely because it was blipped with Strange for five years and Wong decided it wasn’t a necessary part of his uniform, doesn’t mean it’s Sorcerer Supreme bling by any application of logic]. [And before the Time Stone was destroyed, it contained the Time Stone and the Eye of Agamotto was synonymous with the Time Stone. Now it doesn’t, and isn’t, because the Time Stone was destroyed.] I feel like this isn’t that big a deal [and I still don’t; indeed if anything, I think it’s less of a big deal now than I did when we started this!].”
OK so this explanation acknowledges The Ancient One did hide the Time Stone in it. And you’re saying it makes sense Wong wouldn’t wear it because it doesn’t have the non-existant Time Stone in it anyway.
True! I’m just wondering why Strange is still wearing it? Is it just for the look, as I think you are saying? Perhaps! He certainly didn’t use it in Strange 2, did he? I don’t recall. So it’s just because it looks cool now. LOL
I just think it’s confusing to lesser fans because it WAS Sorceror Supreme bling. If they had it on Wong it could have cut out a lot of the dialogue around who was da man, which I think maybe would have given them more time to write better on other parts! OK that last bit is just being snarky.
The confusing part, I meant.
For example, when Wong first mentioned to Strange that it’s customary to bow to the Sorceror Supreme, I heard it the other way round! I thought Wong was saying “I should bow to you, but I’m not gonna.” You gotta admit, that sort of behavior is totally in character for Wong.
Only the NEXT time did they make it clearer Wong was the Supremo.
Unnecessary confusion.
“Well Far From Home was a weirdly accurate fake multiverse plot by Mysterio (he somehow managed to even get the numbers right), and No Way Home actually had multiverse so it’s kind of important to the point. Disney+’s What If…? also had a lot of multiverse stuff that sort of folded into Multiverse of Madness, but not as much as I was expecting it to. Captain Carter at least was introduced there. Although (not to spoil but) there was a mega-powerful zombie Scarlet Witch, it was in fact a version of Ultron with all six Infinity Stones that was the big bad in that one. I’m still not entirely clear how that set of Infinity Stones managed to work multiversally while the ones in Loki were inert. I think maybe I am still messing it up and they just weren’t powerful at the TVA; they only have power inside universes, not beyond them.
Or somesuch.”
That’s pretty fucking wild. I wonder if this is how they’re going to handle the Zombie MCU comics, in pieces in several movies…or are we going to get a full blown one? Maybe the next Dr. Strange?
Right, that tracks. So without it, there’s trouble. I just, in that case, don’t see what the benefit of the “atomised but still doing something” aspect is, it’s just an unnecessary complication. I guess it harks back to their origin at the big bang and the fact that they represent primordial / formative power of some kind that can never really be destroyed. Okay, that’s fine.
And the same goes for the Eye of Agamotto discussion, in case you were worried. I am still kind of irritated that you won’t seem to take “I feel like this isn’t that big a deal” for an answer, but let’s see if I’ve understood the nature of your conviction that it is in fact enough of a big deal to have this many back-and-forths about and require such a degree of addressing from me. I hope I managed to explain my take on it and it helped!
Then our experiences and opinions vary, I think it’s fine how her character and performance changed and you don’t. And we’re done with that?
I really did though! I said I didn’t think it was a big deal. Given that I didn’t think it was a big deal, I felt I’d addressed it enough. Apparently you think it’s a bigger deal that that, so let’s go.
Yeah that’s true, I didn’t think it through (because I didn’t think it was a big deal). So I’m glad we kept going. Also kind of annoyed, but that’s where we live.
*paste*
Okay, so my understanding of the Time Stone and the Eye of Agamotto (which like I say, were synonymous for most of MCU history because the former was stored in the latter) is that it was down in the vault in Bleecker Street, and Strange started fiddling with it against Wong’s orders, leading to the events of the first Doctor Strange movie. He then kept hold of it and wore the medallion more or less as part of his uniform, even when it was empty following his relinquishing of the Time Stone. He was blipped with it, and then went on wearing it in Multiverse of Madness.
Your issue is that the Ancient One had it when Hulk went back for it?
Simple answer, seems to me, is that the world was being invaded by Loki and the Chitauri, and in accordance with her statement that the Time Stone is their greatest weapon against threats (admittedly this wasn’t a multiversal or timeline threat, unless of course it was because as the events of Loki make clear, he was not supposed to win there and his defeat was an act of preservation of the Sacred Timeline) … she took it out of the vault and was using it, or preparing to use it, if things went really bad. She then put it back in the vault after the Battle of New York, for Strange to find when he became an acolyte.
Is that the problem? If so, I call “cool plotting” rather than “flub”. Still don’t think it’s a big deal though.
And all this might be wrong, because the movies might go a completely different direction with it. So far the necklace is really just a thing that held the Time Stone, and now is just Strange bling. It might not be a powerful object in its own right. Have to wait and see I guess. Either way, apparently Wong didn’t feel it necessary to take it back off Strange after he un-blipped five years later.
I can’t stress this enough though, the main point I was trying to make in my addressing of this issue was that I didn’t think the issue was an issue.
Yeah, this would lend some credence to the idea that the Eye of Agamotto does have some power of its own. Or he just likes it, and after five years Wong didn’t see the need to take it. Heck, maybe they’re all just assuming that the necklace has no real value now the Time Stone is gone, but Strange learns better. Wouldn’t exactly be the first time.
See I don’t think it was. I think it was in the vault (except during actual battles), and it became Strange bling when he mastered the Time Stone. And I don’t think that makes me a greater fan. And you’re certainly not a lesser one.
I rather liked the dialogue around Wong being Sorcerer Supreme. Sure, if they wanted to set the Eye of Agamotto up as a part of the SS uniform (heh), they could have put it on Wong. But … here we are?
Yeah nope. I mean yeah, it totally would be, but I got it in the context.
I’m afraid I can’t help you with this and now I’m worried that I probably should have cut it instead of saying that it didn’t confuse me. Bummer that it didn’t land with you, I totally see how it could be interpreted that way even though I didn’t.
OK so I think the mid-posting has created an unfortunate and annoying contentiousness from both of us, and this is me copping to that. If you want to deny it on your part that’s fine.
I’m just going to post a few things in response to your latest comment in conclusion. Up front I am 100% fine with you responding or not, all jokes about getting the last word aside. Please feel no pressure either way. This is me, trying to wrap up these topics.
Also up front I did read all of your latest comment, several times, and agree with everything in it that I don’t specifically mention below. That 2% thing we always talk about. Except one in that 2% was pretty big and right at the start of your response to my Strange 2 review.
A running theme I’ve discovered as I thought about this response is, we have no idea what the lives of the Avengers are like in-between movies! In other words, when Earth isn’t being invaded or at threat of being destroyed from an earth-made entity. No, Hawkeye, sit back down, we know about you. I mean the REAL Avengers. LOL
Do they all have places they go back to, or just some (like Tony) and most hang around other Avengers? No idea. Just leaving that here for later, repeated reference. Endgame definitely drove home that for some, like Black Widow, The Avengers are all they’ve got.
First, I found out on the wiki that Wong being Sorcerer Supreme was discussed in “No Way Home,” so that’s context you had that I didn’t. Possibly explains our differences in this discussion. Honestly it does make 100% sense that someone else (and Wong is the most known other Sorcerer who is still good) would become SS after the Snap, for those 5 years. But I assumed based on Strange knowing the plan in Endgame and kind of running the show, that he had resumed his role as the SS.
After all, why was he SS in the first place (in the Marvel Cinematic universe, not the comics)? I thought it was probably his Time Stone mastery and saving Earth from Dormammu. So, why is Wong it? These are not questions I’m asking you to answer, I’m just saying this is why I thought Strange would be SS again. And him continuing to wear The Eye didn’t help.
Also, just another thought, why do I care about Strange anymore if he’s not SS? “He’s just this guy, you know?” I see no point in a third Strange movie unless he’s going to become SS again. Otherwise when are we going to get the movie about Mr. Xi, aka Random Sorcerer 53 in the assault by Scarlet Witch in Strange 2? LOL
https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Eye_of_Agamotto
Apologies because you kind of landed here regarding what exactly the Eye is for, but you very confidently asserted otherwise in response to my post-Strange-2-thoughts, which is why we got into this whole argument. The Eye’s SOLE purpose is to house and control the Time Stone in a way that skilled users won’t be harmed by it. It was literally (definition 1) created only for that purpose and has had that purpose for thousands of years. It is for the SS to use, and the Time Stone was never hidden elsewhere…only in the Eye. That’s why I kept having issues with what you were asserting in the discussion and trying to get more out of you. It’s just that The Ancient One didn’t wear it in Strange 1, but now Strange wears it almost all the time. That was puzzling me…kinda still does. Not something I’m asking you to explain, though, I promise.
But! I should have just looked at the wiki and ended it! I apologize for that, and for all the unnecessary frustration.
Your point about The Ancient One wearing it during the threat was perfect, makes total sense. Now I’m wondering why Strange is ALWAYS wearing it. LOL. Does he wear it in-between movies? Is he always wearing it because each time he’s doing something in a movie there’s a threat? I think the wedding in Strange 2 is good because it shows him not wearing it, but then he puts it right back on once the action starts and…it literally has no purpose (see above). No Time Stone, no need for the Eye.
And finally on this point, it literally IS The Time Stone necklace. Just like the Infinity Gauntlet is the name of that device. Just needed to put that out there. It’s an infinity necklace for the Time Stone only. So I called it the “Time Stone necklace” for because I forgot its formal title and that was not something that needed to be corrected, especially with a “The Eye isn’t ‘the Time Stone necklace.'” It totally is.
I’m mentioning that because again it’s that sort of thing in this conversation that made me dig in more.
As for the accent thing, I of course accept that you’ve got a counterexample to what I said in mind…I just wish I knew all the specifics around it. No, I’m not asking you to tell me. But I specifically said someone who is in their native country until adulthood, and those accents almost never really go away. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen articles about that, and now I have again. This is just one, there are so many out there.
https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/why-is-accent-reduction-so-hard
So let’s just leave it at it’s REALLY hard and requires specific effort…everything I’m finding when I Google confirms that. My position was never that it’s impossible, even though I’ve never seen it.
So, Wanda was out of her native country and hearing English so long as she was in America and/or with the Avengers wherever they went. Most people, instead, still have a family or seek out a community with their native language, and that can serve to keep the accent active. Or however you want to phrase that effect. That makes a difference, I guess.
So what is she doing between movies? Possibly working on her English accent! Why not. Sure, I’ll take it.
It was a silly thing to worry about, and I have to do better at not letting those things from the Youtube critiques stick with me when they’re silly. So I apologize for the time on that topic too.
It is interesting in general, the loss of an accent, for anyone thinking of emigrating. Not that we’re doing that, America’s so, so okay, right? Nothing to worry about here.
*nervous sweat*
We are what we are. And I think we did fine! I wasn’t paying close attention and definitely missed some of your context here.
That’s a fun area for speculation, but the key point I think is that these are not historical records – they’re stories, for entertainment. So anything pertaining to the story has to happen on-screen somewhere. Otherwise, to quote Deadpool again, that’s just lazy writing.
Although certainly, they have put together a large enough body of canon at this point and set up a sufficient amount of worldbuilding to earn a lot of benefit of the doubt, and to justify a certain amount of assumed action that they may or may not refer to very casually in side-conversation, or slip into a later movie or TV show to make it retroactively clear … I won’t bother thinking up examples but there’s a lot they can do, and they’ve sort of earned it by the planning and setup they’ve done.
Still, if we’re going to sit here and say “oh, this thing that happened wasn’t a contradiction because of something that didn’t happen in the movies but very well could have been explained by some other interaction that we can just make up to fill in the gaps,” that’s very much up to us. And whether we want to allow that sort of shit or not.
Yeah, I completely forgot how much you haven’t seen. I was blending the Wong / Strange interactions from No Way Home and Multiverse of Madness, sorry about that. This speaks directly to the issue of how much Disney should expect viewers to watch and know, and the issues people will face when they’re not watching everything. Are they storytelling gaps, or are they a casual viewer problem? Seems like Disney has the power to decide that. Nitpicks are likely to fail on grounds of ignorance, but complaints based on viewing enjoyment and flow are still valid?
Yeah I can’t answer anyway. I assumed that Strange became Sorcerer Supreme because the Ancient One said so. And it just sort of happened because that’s the movie. That’s what he’s called. Now it’s Wong because of his power and knowledge and contributions, but we have no eyes on him during the blip (for drama reasons) so we just don’t know. He might have just reforged 50% of the Sorcerers’ group and become leader by default, and then half a decade went by and he was it.
His identity as multiversal troublemaker, established in Multiverse of Madness, makes him more interesting. My counter-question would be “why should I care about him just because he has a dumb title?” I don’t care if he’s Sorcerer Supreme or not.
It’s alright. I could have done the same, if I had realised my lack of fucks about the necklace were going to require extensive justification. My “confident” assertion that the necklace was something else was incorrect, and arrived at lazily as an explanation for why Strange still had it and why it wasn’t part of the Sorcerer Supreme’s swag, and why I didn’t think it was a big deal:
The Eye of Agamotto only had the Time Stone in it when Strange / the Sorcerers was / were hiding it there [technically true, although I could have said “always” instead of “only” and this setup downplays the connection between the two to a fault – I just didn’t know]. The Ancient One hid it elsewhere [this was clearly not the case – I had a mental image of her reaching out and plucking it from the sky to give to Banner but that was actually Strange doing that to give it to Thanos]. The Eye isn’t “the Time Stone necklace” [it basically is though, or at least it was and now we don’t really know what it is], it’s a thing of its own that was used to contain the power for a while [for a very long while, yes, and it is a thing of its own now].
If I had to guess, I’d say that it has some power of its own because a piece of metal wouldn’t hold the Time Stone in any useful way. So Strange is using it.
Keep in mind, the third eye Strange gets in his forehead is also the Eye of Agamotto, and that doesn’t seem to be much (directly) to do with the Time Stone. Certainly not now the Time Stone is “gone”.
I’d argue this is a very strong hint that it does have a purpose still.
It totally was the Time Stone necklace. Whether it’s nothing now, I think, still remains to be seen. I didn’t realise that came across as a correction initially though (and I don’t mean this to be a correction either, you were absolutely right about the necklace being for this and this alone, for at the very least as long as the Masters of the Mystic Arts have been around), I was just clarifying what the relic was called. On a scale of Infinity Stone storage vessels, from “random metal orb Star Lord put a troll doll in later” to “Vision correctly disconnected from Mind Stone”, I guess we’ll have to see what Agamotto really wove into that bad boy.
I appreciate that, thanks.
“That’s a fun area for speculation, but the key point I think is that these are not historical records – they’re stories, for entertainment. So anything pertaining to the story has to happen on-screen somewhere. Otherwise, to quote Deadpool again, that’s just lazy writing.
Although certainly, they have put together a large enough body of canon at this point and set up a sufficient amount of worldbuilding to earn a lot of benefit of the doubt, and to justify a certain amount of assumed action that they may or may not refer to very casually in side-conversation, or slip into a later movie or TV show to make it retroactively clear … I won’t bother thinking up examples but there’s a lot they can do, and they’ve sort of earned it by the planning and setup they’ve done.
Still, if we’re going to sit here and say “oh, this thing that happened wasn’t a contradiction because of something that didn’t happen in the movies but very well could have been explained by some other interaction that we can just make up to fill in the gaps,” that’s very much up to us. And whether we want to allow that sort of shit or not.”
All good points! And yeah, they definitely earned the benefit of the doubt from this fella here who has two thumbs and is a Hufflepuff! Certainly on any of the issues we weren’t able to resolve here.
“Yeah, I completely forgot how much you haven’t seen. I was blending the Wong / Strange interactions from No Way Home and Multiverse of Madness, sorry about that. This speaks directly to the issue of how much Disney should expect viewers to watch and know, and the issues people will face when they’re not watching everything. Are they storytelling gaps, or are they a casual viewer problem? Seems like Disney has the power to decide that. Nitpicks are likely to fail on grounds of ignorance, but complaints based on viewing enjoyment and flow are still valid?”
Understood and thanks. I think that’s a reasonable standard, although on the other hand I would really expect standalone movies to only rely on people seeing the previous standalones in that series, and any collaborations (like the main Avengers ones for example). I don’t consider the Spiderman movies to be collaborations even though they do have “extras” from other series’. So I don’t think it’s right for Disney to expect I’ve watched those before the next Doctor Strange, for example.
And generally it was fine! A misunderstood joke of a line that I understood later in the movie, that didn’t matter for the plot…I’d say it was basically fine. I just hope we’re not on a slippery slope!
“Yeah I can’t answer anyway. I assumed that Strange became Sorcerer Supreme because the Ancient One said so. And it just sort of happened because that’s the movie. That’s what he’s called. Now it’s Wong because of his power and knowledge and contributions, but we have no eyes on him during the blip (for drama reasons) so we just don’t know. He might have just reforged 50% of the Sorcerers’ group and become leader by default, and then half a decade went by and he was it.”
Yeah, something like that although I would expect they’d elect a new one sooner than that. But who knows! Will we ever get a movie about those 5 years from all perspectives? Hmm.
“His identity as multiversal troublemaker, established in Multiverse of Madness, makes him more interesting. My counter-question would be “why should I care about him just because he has a dumb title?” I don’t care if he’s Sorcerer Supreme or not.”
Yeah but I watched the movie under false pretenses! LOL
Further to your point, he now has the Eye in his head and might be up to all sorts of shenanigans, and have all sorts of extra powers, as a result. So Wong may be SS, but let’s have more…S…S….
Second SS is Steven Strange lol
“It’s alright. I could have done the same, if I had realised my lack of fucks about the necklace were going to require extensive justification. My “confident” assertion that the necklace was something else was incorrect, and arrived at lazily as an explanation for why Strange still had it and why it wasn’t part of the Sorcerer Supreme’s swag, and why I didn’t think it was a big deal:
The Eye of Agamotto only had the Time Stone in it when Strange / the Sorcerers was / were hiding it there [technically true, although I could have said “always” instead of “only” and this setup downplays the connection between the two to a fault – I just didn’t know]. The Ancient One hid it elsewhere [this was clearly not the case – I had a mental image of her reaching out and plucking it from the sky to give to Banner but that was actually Strange doing that to give it to Thanos]. The Eye isn’t “the Time Stone necklace” [it basically is though, or at least it was and now we don’t really know what it is], it’s a thing of its own that was used to contain the power for a while [for a very long while, yes, and it is a thing of its own now].”
Right, right, and thanks for that! Well in the comics the Eye of Agomotto is more than just for the Time Stone, so they could still go in that direction. However, as far as the MCU is concerned, it is only the Time Stone necklace. Time will tell! Hee
“If I had to guess, I’d say that it has some power of its own because a piece of metal wouldn’t hold the Time Stone in any useful way. So Strange is using it.
Keep in mind, the third eye Strange gets in his forehead is also the Eye of Agamotto, and that doesn’t seem to be much (directly) to do with the Time Stone. Certainly not now the Time Stone is “gone”.”
Indeed, and thank you for mentioning that because I didn’t know it WAS also “The Eye of Agamotto.” Specifically, it is referred to as “the physical manifestation” of the Eye. So I looked into it and here’s the most interesting paragraph of all I read:
‘In print form, the physical manifestation of the Eye of Agamotto isn’t necessarily anything for Doctor Strange to be worried about. It’s sometimes referred to as the Eye of Truth, as it often manifests more like a blinding light than an actual eyeball and socket. In fact, in contrast to the theory that the eye is a dark mark, its pure light wards off evil in the comics. This force for good gives Strange the very helpful ability to see what really is, and it can let him into the minds of others to read their true intentions. It can also break illusions and reveal disguises, and control time and space, giving Strange the power to see into the past and the future and travel to different realities and dimensions.’
So, hot damn, that Eye in his forehead can give him all SORTS of powers. That last bit sounds like what the DarkHold also taught him and Scarlet Witch, but as for the rest that’s pretty cool. Presumably the MCU will pull from some of that, instead of just making him evil like the other Strange, but who knows! Maybe a bit of both!
“I’d argue this is a very strong hint that it does have a purpose still.”
In the comics it for sure does…it gives him the forehead Eye, so perhaps in the MCU that Eye is also due to both the DarkHold and the necklace.
“It totally was the Time Stone necklace. Whether it’s nothing now, I think, still remains to be seen. I didn’t realise that came across as a correction initially though (and I don’t mean this to be a correction either, you were absolutely right about the necklace being for this and this alone, for at the very least as long as the Masters of the Mystic Arts have been around), I was just clarifying what the relic was called. On a scale of Infinity Stone storage vessels, from “random metal orb Star Lord put a troll doll in later” to “Vision correctly disconnected from Mind Stone”, I guess we’ll have to see what Agamotto really wove into that bad boy.”
Cheers, and yep! It’ll be interesting, I hope!
Sorry, so to make my issue about the Eye SUPER clear, was it a mistake or a shortcut that The Ancient One was wearing it in Endgame (pre-Strange in training), or did she have the Time Stone there AND wear it in Doctor Strange 1? I think it’s the former but maybe she did.
And I understand it being a shortcut, I totally get it. But if she didn’t wear it, she didn’t wear it!
You guys have really run this through the ringer. I was going to post that I liked the movie and enjoyed all of the Raimi callbacks. While it wasn’t the best movie I have seen I still had fun, but after your discourse it feels pretty insufficient.
Any way, Obi-wan on Disney blows.
And, please start a new post so we can talk about the January 6th hearings.
Your friend,
YAY killing fanboyism is my prime objective!
No but seriously, the hearings are too late at night, not gonna watch. Sorry. Hope people will though.
I’d be interested in any of your updates and views on the hearings, Damon, provided they are accompanied by laconic humour. Not a huge amount of coverage here, well, not a huge amount given the cursory glances I give world news on any given day at the moment….
tbh I haven’t been watching during the day since I have been working and construction/remodeling work doesn’t lend itself to talk radio. What I am interested in is how the narrative plays out and if any of the people who were aghast at the insurrection and then backed off as the Republican talking points (lies) played down the severity of the insurrection are swayed by the hearings. I don’t need to be convinced, I already know what happened, but the opening argument that they aired in primetime was really impactful, even to me. Mostly I have been reading The Guardian’s coverage when I get home.
None of it matters though. Republicans are working the system to basically take over in the next four rounds of elections and the Democrats think that not fighting fire with fire is noble. Fuck that! Unfortunately, because two Dems are actually Republicans and no one in the other side will cross the aisle there aren’t enough votes to get ANYTHING DONE!
I saw that your last elections kicked the righties to the curb somewhat. Congrats. Hopefully it makes a difference.
Best to you (and all gods creatures*). How are things in the West Coast?
*Sarcastic about the God stuff
Things on the West Coast of Straya are…umm…not much different than they always are, and probably not much different to everywhere else. Except without the war or insurrection. Bit wet lately (it being winter) but blue skies today; it’s expensive (but then it generally is, living here); and we’ve reopened all our borders now, after two years of being shut off and covid being non-existent in our community. So after two years of not so much as a sniffle or cough to be heard, everyone’s generally been sick with something in the last couple of months and there’s a massive backlog for passports so people can go somewhere, anywhere….
But open borders most importantly means Hatboy just might get over here sometime this decade, which will of course be very nice. His brother will have to formally introduce us to each other as actual, real, breathing human beings.
Which will be, you know, interesting.
I can’t wait for this. Still hoping to make it in the summer (ie. Christmas / new year), but it’s a slim and glimmering hope. So much else going on.
My folks will be here in another two and a half weeks, if all goes well and they don’t catch anything.
hearings are at 10am your time daily on most news outlets.
Are either of you watching Obi? Thoughts? Prayers?
You can talk about them in this post, I’m not interested enough or convinced that there will be any consequences for any of it so I won’t make a separate post unless (as I am tempting fate by saying this) there is a huge result and something actually real happens. Until then, the floor is yours as always – I’m not here to railroad discussions.
But also nope, haven’t watched any Obi Wan yet. There’s zero interest in our household except for my 7% interest, and that cannot stand up against all the other shows that are on our various streaming services.
You are probably correct.😤
Don’t watch Obi. Ms. Marvel on the other hand is great!
Yep, we’re waiting for the second episode of that one! Also watching Raised By Wolves casually.
I’m guessing you (Hatboy) didn’t see the new Batman (Pattinson), due to there being no blog entry.
UGH SO BORING. I thought the movie was going on much, much longer than it was. Also I thought I was almost done, but there are 37 long more playtime minutes apparently!
Bad fight scenes, stupid lines, laughable ones in many cases, and once again we’re at the start of a barely competent Batman so that doesn’t help. I’m assuming the plan is for him to train and beef up for the sequels, which I do not plan to watch.
I can’t figure out why it was reviewed as well as it was. At least, higher than it should by far.
It’s even available for me on HBO Max, but I have no desire to see it. My go-to reviewer champ at Toisto.net reviewed it and that’s all I need.
Yup that’s where I watched it. Well, most of it. Gave up last night. Not sure if I’ll see how it ends.
It’s actually entirely appropriate to talk about the hearings in this post, because are we honestly going to have a better blog title than this one?